Thoughts on Nitrous

[R Rinker]

Just for fun and education....
Was doing some casual reading on nitrous oxide injection, just for a short, few seconds burst of 20-30 extra horsepower. The 80/100 hp 912 with the turbo's now available are running up to 130-140 hp and run at that power for several minutes. So a 20-30 horse boost for 10 seconds to get off a short gravel bar shouldn't be an issue for the engine. Also we are at 3,500' asl. So a 30 hp boost would only be putting out about 120some hp in the summer. Cooling shouldn't be an issue for a 10 second burst. The Super Stol would be an ideal candidate for that system since it would only ever be used for a few seconds on takeoff. The cheaper(??) stock 100hp engine is all you need for landing and cruise...it's just that few seconds to get into the air on those extraordinary occasions when you really need it, and for a the vast majority it would only be once in a long while that you find yourself in that situation. It is now being used in auto conversion engines on homebuilts quite successfully. I know the Cub's at the Valdez competition use it in their Lycomings. It has the potential for vast increases in hp that no engine could handle, but "if" it could be tamed to just get that extra 30hp for a few seconds...
I guess it is also a form of 'laughing gas' and the best post I've read in a long time said something about if the system failed you would die in a fit of laughter...real way to go. Should really cheer up the passengers on the pre-flight briefing. We've had 40some below the last couple mornings here. You should see how aircraft perform in air that cold. It's not just the extra hp from the dense air but the extreme extra lift the wings & prop produce...it's like flying in a liquid. We had a Beaver depart Old Crow one day at 50/55 below! It used to be common in Alaska for the 300hp 520's to blow seals on takeoff when it got real cold, so it was recommended not to use full power. Really hard not to because you feel like you're in a helicopter.

[FredHoffman]

I think it would be a great idea. There have been many NOS applications on record attempts with aircraft engines. I am sure it could be done safely. The challenge would be to match the fuel delivered to the engine so it isn't harmed from running too lean during the boost.

It would be pretty cool if someone with talent in the area worked out a system. I would use it once proven.

[kenryan]

I like the idea, and agree with the underlying idea that 100 hp is all you usually need, but a couple of thoughts. First, a 10 second boost wouldn't help those who fly regularly at altitude and need the horsepower for normal operations. Also, it seems you would need to have a ground adjustable propeller, and you would need to re-set it to take advantage of the extra power.

[FlyerChief]

Billy Payne could likely provide a bit of insight on this as he's been working on it for some time now and may even have a plane flying with it installed. I saw the one he was working on back in May.... very impressive.

Dan

[billy5823]

ok guys I guess the first step to rehab is to admit to yourself that you have a problem. yes I am hooked on nitrous, so I guess I am coming out of the closet with my nitrous system for 912 ,912s,914,
this is a complete bolt on kit with everything you need.. they will be available the end of January 2014.
so heres the deal.. lower temps,higher hp ive done up to 200 out of a 80 horse. low weight 7lbs total. the great thing is that the engine doesnt even know its there, if not activated. so here is the sweet thing a 40 hp shot lets you set your prop for best cruise, 5200 static, then hit the button for best take off.. no adjusting prop .. you will get about 10 10sec pulls out of a 2.5lb bottle. are you going to use it all the time probably not unless your showing off ,or actually using the planes for what they were ment for..so the deal is now you can take a ss and get out of that spot it will land in.no computers,no bs to mess up, and no 40lbs a turbo adds and no heat a turbo adds. now if you have a turbo put it on a computer and see just how long it has been at full boost.. garys plane has been used I thought a bunch with all the playing everyone has done in it,,but in 2200 hrs it has a total of 46 minutes in turbo... now for altitutude you still have as much power as at sl. your normal engine will be weaker but not when on the button.. so will it help.. I think so..i have over 1000 pulls on the same engine and teardown looked great.. with the button on the engine is running the most effiecient it can run..and its happy happy happy. now is this my first rodeo with nitrous . no I have been doing it on bikes and anything else ive ever had including 2 strokes.. I wanted this to be completetly bullet proof before I released it and I believe it is.. as yall know I hate computers id rather be in the shop so I will update yall sometime or give me a call.. I will be running 200 hp for competions but the 40 for everyday flying.. I may or may not use it but if I need it its there.. thanks billy

[moving2time]

Billy, two questions when you get the chance. Sounds like the power you are getting out of the system is adjustable. I am not very engine savvy so I apologize if I sound ignorant but that's because I am. I need to research this tech so I am not completely lost. Sounds like you would set the system for a 40 HP shot but if needed you can adjust it up to 200 HP. Is this an accurate statement? 200 HP Total or Boost? Second, would your system work on a fuel injected engine such as the UL? Sorry, one more question: Since the Nitrous can add the power we would need at altitude or in tight places, would it make sense to stick with 100 HP engines, saving both cost and weight, since more HP doesn't really help with the cruise speed of the Highlander or SS?

[aerochristian]

"Gary's plane has been used I thought a bunch with all the playing everyone has done in it,,but in 2200 hrs it has a total of 46 minutes in turbo...."

ok so that's:
46 min = 1.254 secs
2200hrs ..... 1 hr

So lets just say that during that 2200hrs Gary averaged flights that lasted roughly 2 hours each and took off only once during that 2 hours. That equates to roughly 2.5 seconds of turbo for the entire flight including takeoff, climbout and any other full power application during that 2 hours. A better indication of turbo usage would be the manifold pressure gauge which I doubt only shows boost (even full boost) for 1.254 seconds out of every hour of flying a 914.

[billy5823]

to answer your question yes I can make it however much or less hp increase you want...and yes I can build a nitrous system for anything,but the engine has to be precision enough to take it.. I have 2 years testing on the rotax and don't intend to do the r and d for the others ..mainly because I think they are boat anchors and are not gear reduction. thanks billy

and next on the time on turbo..that is full boost time,off of the ecm..

I wont be posting anymore so feel free to give me a call.. will be happy to talk with you.. thanks billy

[SheepdogRD]

Even if the 46 minutes out of 2200 hours was 46 hours out of 2200, it would only be 2% of the flight time. Our planes don't spend much time at take-off power.

I've liked Billy's idea of a Rotax nitrous system since hearing about it at the Just fly-in last spring. We're still a few months away from ordering an engine, but I think we'll want this.

Sign me up, Billy.

[aerochristian]

Kinda my whole point.

Even the "exaggerated" example of 46hrs/2200hrs (2%) is low for full power application during a normal flight. That's less than 1.5 min for an hour flight. Every pilot is going to be different but you have to at least climb a little. I would say for me, at a minimum, it would be at least 10% (6 min-takeoff and climb to altitude) for every hour and that's on a cruising, relaxing flight. Now playing around in my airplane, I'd be closer to 15min (25%) of full power out of every hour. And believe me, I've flown with Gary and Troy enough to know that 1.5 secs or 1.5 min of full power every hour of flying is not even close to reality.

[billy5823]

ok for you guys that have othing better to do with your time..my point was you just don't use it that much didn't know yall wanted to pick it apart. so here is the page off the ecm..at full boost 36 min total boost at bottom..thanks im going back to work ..that's where it gets done..

914 data.jpg

[aerochristian]

Still.... 53hrs 42min (3,222min) total under boost ain't bad. Turns out Holtz guessed it almost right on the money. I'd be interested in how that thing actually counts boost. Apparently spool up/down time accounts for almost 98.5% of total boost time, which would still indicate the pilot is asking for full power. Anyways sorry to get your panties in a wad Billy. Seeing numbers used in a sales pitch that seem unrealistic to me just rubs me the wrong way. What you need to sell along with your nitrous kit is a manual boost control for the 914.

[FredHoffman]

Now that you really got me thinking about nitrous and the more I research it I see what a great idea it is. I have poured over a few companies websites that sell kits for all kind of vehicles, what I came away from it is I believe it can be done safely. I had no idea they now had electronic controls much like electronic fuel injection systems and separate fuel pumps to meter additional fuel and nitrous together.

And as far as my expectation of operating a highlander I only want the power for TO. Seems like this is a perfect match for a STOL airplane. Hopefully you could even set TO power like the airlines, matching the power setting to the runway length available.

I am really looking forward seeing this fly!

Fred