Canadian Red Tape

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Canadian Red Tape

Postby R Rinker » Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:27 pm

I got a call today from Jerry Haliburton of the MDRA asking for proof that the Super Stol is a "Quickbuild" kit. He needs a factory invoice or official factory proof that it is a "Quickbuild" kit. My invoice does not have that special word anywhere. So I'm asking the Canadian builders how they satisfied this requirement of the MDRA. I thought the 51% inspection dealt with all that, but they need this proof 'before' they do the 51% inspection, which we still need because the SS is not on the 51% list. The explanation I got was if they see something the factory did but I can't prove the factory did it I'll have to tear it apart! I need to know what to ask the factory for, exactly, to satisfy the MDRA...what did you do??
Rodger Rinker - Rocky Mountain House, Alberta, Canada
Super Stol build/January 2014
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Re: Canadian Red Tape

Postby FlyerChief » Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:44 pm

Hi Rodger,
My plane is a Highlander, but I recall someone mentioning that the Highlander was considered somewhere around 78 to 80% owner built. If that is truly the case, it shouldn't be too difficult to convince the MDRA inspector that the factory's portion of assembling the wing itself wouldn't account for 30% of the build. Of course it would be best if the factory would just make this info available to MDRA and Transport Canada.
Good Luck,
Dan
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Re: Canadian Red Tape

Postby Familyflyer » Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:40 pm

What does your invoice say? It must show the adds on the invoice for the quick build option. That should suffice. I am sure just aircraft can just add a bit more detail to the invoice to get them what they need. It's not red tape, just a normal process in getting it in the system. You need proof the factory did it, that is all.
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Re: Canadian Red Tape

Postby R Rinker » Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:08 pm

I read the invoice to him. He wanted something more. Maybe I'm the only one that has had to jump through this hoop? If so, they are making up the rules as we go. I was hoping to find out what everyone else did when they ran into this and save myself a lot of time and correspondence. When I ordered the kit they didn't list a 'quick build' option because at that time all the kits were supposed to be sold with the wings completed to that degree...it wasn't an option. So my invoice doesn't say quick build. When I asked the factory if I did indeed have the 'quick build', they said I had 'stage 1' and there is also 'stage 2'. I haven't seen anything on the website or options list about stage 1 or stage 2 and I don't know what it means other than what Harry said, "more money".
Rodger Rinker - Rocky Mountain House, Alberta, Canada
Super Stol build/January 2014
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Re: Canadian Red Tape

Postby danerazz » Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:20 pm

Just curious, why do they care that you prove it is a "quick build" kit? I could see them requiring proof it was NOT quick build if it would not pass the majority amateur built rule as such, but requiring proof that it IS is a bit confusing.
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Re: Canadian Red Tape

Postby Familyflyer » Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:46 am

The web site clearly identifies what each stage is. The mdra should just read that and it should answer what they need as long as your invoice says stage 1 on it.

I think the main problem here is that it is still not a 51% approved kit. If Just Aircraft would get that approval finalized it would save confusion and money.
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Re: Canadian Red Tape

Postby R Rinker » Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:59 am

My invoice doesn't say anything about stage 1 or 2 because it didn't exist then. I never heard anything about stage 1 or 2 until a few weeks ago when I inquired about the quick build definition because that wasn't on my invoice either. I see now they mention stage 1 and 2 on the price list on their web site, but it's very confusing to me. They say, set wings to frame on 1 and set wings to fuselage on 2. What's the difference between the frame and the fuselage? They also say, set wings to ribs, leading edge, slat assembly, and drag tubes. If it doesn't have any of those components it's not a 'wing', it's simply a spar.
Jerry told me emphatically that unless they get whatever this is they want I could find myself in a situation where I have to tear a factory assembled wing apart!
Like I said, if no one else has encountered this hurdle, then you can't help...I just asked because I thought someone had gone through this and could help me with it.
Rodger Rinker - Rocky Mountain House, Alberta, Canada
Super Stol build/January 2014
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Re: Canadian Red Tape

Postby Familyflyer » Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:44 am

I did not get the quick build or stage 1 kit. It was all kit. I have gotten quick build from Vans with my RV10 and had no trouble. The invoice said quick build though. Sounds like you need just aircraft to give you more detail on the invoice. All they are needing is proof the factory built it. The only way for that is if it written on the invoice.

As far as ripping it apart, that makes no sense. Everything is visible and to the pre close up inspection point. They can see it all. I can talk to the MDRA if you keep having trouble. Don't be shy to call me.
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Re: Canadian Red Tape

Postby SheepdogRD » Wed Feb 05, 2014 10:50 am

R Rinker wrote:They say, set wings to frame on 1 and set wings to fuselage on 2. What's the difference between the frame and the fuselage?

Technically, the "frame" is the welded assembly of tubes and fittings to which nothing has been attached, and the "fuselage" is that entire section of the aircraft at any stage of completion. Even if nothing has been added to the frame, it's still the fuselage at that point, and so the terms are effectively interchangeable. From an editor's standpoint, it should use the same term in both places.

R Rinker wrote:They also say, set wings to ribs, leading edge, slat assembly, and drag tubes. If it doesn't have any of those components it's not a 'wing', it's simply a spar.

Perhaps it would be clearer if Stage 1 said, "Minimal - set wing assemblies (spars, ribs and drag tubes) to fuselage", and Stage 2 said, "Includes Stage 1 plus setting leading edge and slat assemblies to wing assemblies".

R Rinker wrote:Jerry told me emphatically that unless they get whatever this is they want I could find myself in a situation where I have to tear a factory assembled wing apart!

That's a pretty inflammatory statement, and I'd want to avoid that, too. I can't tell you how to deal with Jerry, or with anyone at the MDRA. I'd suggest writing Jerry a letter, rather than talking on the phone. Ask him to provide a copy of the regulation and an explanation of what proof is acceptable. Phone conversations are informative, but you need direction in printed form. Then, if it gets dicey, you have some logical basis for your actions. "He told me..." probably isn't very defensible.

Right now, you don't even know what MDRA wants, so it will likely be difficult for the factory to satisfy an unknown need. To me, the most important thing you can do is get MDRA's expectations in writing.

There's still a lot you can be doing on the kit while you wait for their answer. That'll be a lot more fun than dealing with the government.
Richard Holtz
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Re: Canadian Red Tape

Postby R Rinker » Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:42 am

I don't see Jerry as being inflammatory. I think he was trying to make sure I get through the process with out grief. The issue seems to be the builder having to prove that everything done before the 51% inspection was done by the factory, and not anyone else, especially if something was closed, like a leading edge and couldn't be seen. Must be something new if no one else has had to face it. I'll give them a letter from the factory and that hopefully will do it...Thanks Richard, Troy, Dane, & Dan...nice to know you guys are there to help out.
Rodger Rinker - Rocky Mountain House, Alberta, Canada
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Re: Canadian Red Tape

Postby Familyflyer » Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:39 am

Did you get sorted?
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Re: Canadian Red Tape

Postby jak » Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:50 pm

Tomorrow morn the FAA will inspect the superstol and put it on the 51% list it will take them 2 days to do there thing at the factory then what ever for them on there time but its finally here. Jak
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Re: Canadian Red Tape

Postby kenryan » Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:03 pm

That's great news Jak. You can bet there are a lot of customers who will appreciate the effort.
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Re: Canadian Red Tape

Postby Sergio Luiten » Tue Feb 25, 2014 2:55 am

At Spain . the 51% and 49 % it is a result of the total amount of hours that takes to built the entire aircraft.

We considered the engine as a 30 % of the amount .

but basically it happens that before the 51% inspection
You have to declare the hours to built and all them toguether have to arrive until 49%.

Looks like we have the same regulations. So in order to amateur built . you only buy the material. And the
Regulations sais that the owner it is the only responsable of the construction process.
So it happens to us that need to write a letter saying that it was 51 and 49 % . but not from the factory . from the owner.

Hope can help and pardon my english . i am spanish speaker.
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Re: Canadian Red Tape

Postby R Rinker » Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:45 pm

Good News here in Canada...I got things worked out this morning with the MDRA. The SS is on the FAA 51% list and I've got the right paperwork to make the Canadians happy..specifically the work done by the factory with Stage 2 quickbuild... so I'm finally good to go and I don't need the prebuild inspection. Jerry is definitely on our side in the process. They are doing everything to help and make the system work for us, so this is great news.
If anyone has learned something in your build that you think would be helpful to pass on I'm definitely open to advice and would consider it a favor. When I opened the boxes packed in the fuselage I found a couple cans of glue that experienced a lot of 30 below temps on the way home...does anyone know if freezing ruins that stuff??
I will have to fabricate a sealed door & frame for our climate...any advice on that?
Still unsure how much of the skylight I want...I rode in a homebuild a couple days ago that the builder elected to go with a covered roof..the interior was more comfortable and the panel wasn't over saturated with glare. The downside is that you loose the landing site in turns, and sometimes that's hard to see when your looking right at it.
Evidently there is some work being done on that issue of the angle of the horizontal stab?? I haven't drilled any holes yet..
If you're more comfortable emailing or phoning me than posting stuff, my email is [email protected] (you know to use a . I'm trying to foil the bots) and my phone is 403-989-3715. I always enjoy talking to someone because we are out in the woods, or in Canada speak..we are out in the bush. So that's why every day I look out and picture that SS siting in front of the house waiting to take me over the next hill (before the oil companies wipe it all out).
Rodger Rinker - Rocky Mountain House, Alberta, Canada
Super Stol build/January 2014
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