Highlander on Floats

For general discussion of the Just Aircraft family of aircraft.
Includes: Highlander, Escapade, Summit and SuperSTOL.
Post Reply
av8rps
Veteran Member
Posts: 480
Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 5:01 pm

Highlander on Floats

Post by av8rps »

This is a continuation of a previous thread titled "New to a Highlander". Because the discussion in that original thread was evolving into discussions about floats and Highlanders, I thought it would be best to start a new topic where we could appropriately carry on our float discussion.

Here was where we left off;
I don't know Bob myself, but the other Highlander builder here does and he mentioned that Bob likes them. Bob's Highlander has a 912ULS 100hp. His Zenair amphibs are a bit slow getting off the water, but I think any amphib float is going to seem that way, especially if you are used to straight floats. Like Dane mentioned, they may not be set up 100% correct for his plane either. Personally, I am willing to trade off a bit of take-off distance in favour of the versatility of amphibs and for the cost Zenair is pretty hard to beat. The larger wheels on the Zenairs also appear to be better for grass strips than most amphibs.
I have some experience with the Zenair design amphib but primarily on a Rans S7 with a 100 hp 912 and a warp drive prop. It was a great performer (comparable to straight float SuperCub) but the floats used were the smaller 1250 sized amphibs. By comparison, it appears the yellow Highlander in the picture is using the Zenair 1450 amphib. And while the 1450 appears to be nothing more than a scaled up version of the original 1150/1250 Zenair amphib, it might actually be a bit too large a float for a Highlander? If the float is larger than it needs to be, takeoff distance, climb, and cruise speeds will suffer due to the extra weight and drag. The larger float however will handle being overloaded better, and will sit higher in the water.

So how do you know what size float you need?

I like to use the formula the FAA uses (FAR 23.751) for float sizing. Using a 1430 lb max weight LSA seaplane as our example we can calculate how big of a float we need; First divide the 143o by two to come up with how much weight each float needs to support in fresh water (715 lbs in this case). Then add 80% more bouyancy (another 572 lbs) to the 715 lbs and you now have a total of 1287 lbs total displacement or bouyancy needed for each float.

Of course, now you have to know the actual displacement of the floats you are considering as many float manufacturers don't always represent their floats true displacement in their model number or size descriptions. But I have found in my experience with most that they typically understate the total displacement rather than overstate it.

And that stands to reason based on my experience with the CZ 1300 amphibs. They work exceptionally well on a Highlander, with plenty of floatation while still performing well. And the 1250's also work very well based on my experience with a Rans S7 (even at 1550+ lbs I may add - I've done that more than once :oops: ). Again, the larger floats will better tolerate overloading due to having a much higher reserve buoyancy, but performance in more standard operating weights is likely to suffer compared to the slightly smaller float.

However, knowing all that, if I felt I needed to fly on a regular basis in the 1550 lb weight range, I would probably go with the bigger floats. My float math at 1550 lbs shows I would need a 1395 lb displacement float. So the 1450 would probably be a good option in that case.

All this is why getting a good performing seaplane, especially an amphib, is not easy. But it is still worth it. Put your Highlander on floats and you will have a hard time going back to flying wheels. It absolutely comes into its own as a seaplane...
Bay State Flatlander
Forum Regular
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:18 am
Location: Central Massachusetts

Re: Highlander on Floats

Post by Bay State Flatlander »

I'm looking forward to the day I put mine up on floats.
User avatar
SheepdogRD
Proprietor
Posts: 930
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:41 pm
Location: West of Atlanta, GA

Re: Highlander on Floats

Post by SheepdogRD »

Paul, you commented in the earlier thread that you may have put your EAA Sport Pilot article on line here. Here's the thread containing the article and other interesting Highlander-on-floats talk: http://www.wingsforum.com/viewtopic.php ... cle#p32583.

Several posts down in that thread, there's a picture of N255CH. Is this the Highlander that started the discussion in "New to Highlander" (http://www.wingsforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=218&t=23169)?
N255CH.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Richard Holtz
Highlander N570L -- Ms. Tonka -- in gestation

If just enough is really good, then too much ought to be perfect.
av8rps
Veteran Member
Posts: 480
Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 5:01 pm

Re: Highlander on Floats

Post by av8rps »

Yes, that is the airplane that started the original thread. It's a beauty isn't it? And being traditional Highlander, it flies as good as it looks.

That picture was taken of it when it was on a set of straight floats, Baumann 1420's if I recall correctly. Notice how high it sits in the water? It worked well on those floats, but if I remember right, the 1300 amphibs were as good or better.

Oh, and thank you for finding that link to my article. That will save me a lot of time. I knew I had it out there somewhere in the internet :)

Paul
User avatar
FlyerChief
Veteran Member
Posts: 290
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:53 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Highlander on Floats

Post by FlyerChief »

Hi Paul,

Thanks for the feedback on the Zenairs. My float kit is due the end of March and I'm looking forward to building them almost as much as building my Highlander. I'm sure it will be a good combination from what I've read, especially for a zero-time seaplane pilot like me. (I still have to get my float rating.)
In the meantime, I still have to arrange the final inspection on the plane and fly the hours off.
I may be looking for some advice as I get closer to mating the two together!
This summer is going to be great!!!

Dan
When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it. ~Henry Ford
av8rps
Veteran Member
Posts: 480
Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 5:01 pm

Re: Highlander on Floats

Post by av8rps »

Hey Dan,
I admire you for wanting to build those floats as I've been told its like building another plane. Are they the 1450 amphibs?

I have a really nice set of zenair 1250's that I bought used from a friend and have to say for the money they are a great float. I planned to use them on my Highlander but found a set of the cz 1300 amphibs (which I like even better) so I will either sell the 1250's , or put them on something else. One can never have enough seaplanes :D

I'd be happy to help answer any questions when that time comes.
User avatar
Av8r3400
Seasoned Member
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 6:50 am
Location: North Central Wisconsin
Contact:

Re: Highlander on Floats

Post by Av8r3400 »

av8rps wrote:One can never have enough seaplanes :D

What's your count up to these days, Paul??

Avid, Kitfox, Lake, Highlander, …

Didn't I see you looking lustily at a Caravan amphib? :shock:

Gotta have a kerosene burner… :wink:
Av8r3400
User avatar
FlyerChief
Veteran Member
Posts: 290
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:53 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Highlander on Floats

Post by FlyerChief »

Hi Paul,

Yes, they are 1450 amphibs ... parts kit only ... not predrilled. I have also heard that it's like building another plane, but a guy's gotta have a hobby. :lol:
Thanks for the offer of advice.
Are your 1250's amphib or straight?

Thanks,
Dan
When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it. ~Henry Ford
av8rps
Veteran Member
Posts: 480
Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 5:01 pm

Re: Highlander on Floats

Post by av8rps »

Well, at least you know what you are up against. And hey, if you like to build I'm going to guess you will enjoy the project. But when I look at mine...MAN, that is a lot of rivets!!!

I think the 1450's will work well for you. And even though they may not come off the water as well as a slightly smaller float, the upside is that they will be a bit more forgiving while you gain some float experience, and you can load them heavier.

The 1250's I have are amphibs. They are a set that were built by the same guys in the Czech Republic that made my CZ 1300's. I heard they were built under license to Zenair, as they are for sure Zenair design. Workmanship is unbelievably good. And rather than using the conventional pop rivets, they used standard aircraft rivets (that was a lot of bucking...) Plus they added some things that improved some weak areas of the float (which I believe Zenair now includes on their own floats). And the guy that I bought them from had them painted by a bodyshop with a nice Imron gray metallic paint, and then clearcoated! So they are a super nice set of amphibs.

And because of their size will work on just about any LSA. I originally bought them for my Highlander, but then found my 1300's so I didn't need them. So I thought maybe I would put them on my Kitfox 4 that currently has a small set of aerocets on (and underfloated), but it performs so well I hate to mess that combination up (it would actually be overfloated with the 1250's).

And then out of the blue I end up with a Kitfox Super Sport kit (bought from an estate sale) that would make for an awesome floatplane with the 1250's on it. I even have a spare 912s for it. But at the rate my life is moving I will be a hundred by the time I get that done. So I am thinking I may sell the Kitfox kit and the floats, but am still in contemplation about all that. Its not easy finding a proven set of good LSA floats in this condition. Sometimes even getting a new set can be a hassle, so I'm taking my time thinking about what I really want to do with them.
av8rps
Veteran Member
Posts: 480
Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 5:01 pm

Re: Highlander on Floats

Post by av8rps »

Av8r3400 wrote:
av8rps wrote:One can never have enough seaplanes :D

What's your count up to these days, Paul??

Avid, Kitfox, Lake, Highlander, …

Didn't I see you looking lustily at a Caravan amphib? :shock:

Gotta have a kerosene burner… :wink:
Hi Larry,

Hey, you missed Super Sport :lol:

My motto; "One Woman, Many Airplanes"

I always say "It's when you get that backwards that it gets expensive". Airplanes are cheap by comparison

Oh, and about that Caravan... It was actually a Kodiak Amphib. But after flying it around lake Winnebago (with 5 people in the back) it isn't anywhere near the fun of my Kitfox or Highlander. And it burns 50+ gph (gulp). Although Ann really liked it because it would hold all of her shoes... :wink:
User avatar
gkremers
Veteran Member
Posts: 495
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:06 am
Location: Michigan

Re: Highlander on Floats

Post by gkremers »

Paul,
I should have my Highlander ready for inspection within the next 3 months. Plan on flying it on wheels this summer to get the hours flown off and really get used to it. I do have skis for the winter but they are the wheel penetration type so no big deal to install.

When I was at Sun and Fun 2 years ago I talked to a guy from Clamar. The anphibious floats looked really nice. I spoke to 2 guys using them and they had nothing but good things to say about them. They are pricy compared to the Zenair, about $5,000 - $6,000 more. The weight is similar.

Do you have any experience with them, I value your opinion.

Thanks
Gary
av8rps
Veteran Member
Posts: 480
Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 5:01 pm

Re: Highlander on Floats

Post by av8rps »

Yes the clamars Ive heard are good. No personalm experience with them, but what I heard from others I trust. I'm surprised they are only that much more than the Zenairs as I heard 26k plus rigging and freight.
User avatar
FlyerChief
Veteran Member
Posts: 290
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:53 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Highlander on Floats

Post by FlyerChief »

I was quoted $27k plus rigging for the Clamar floats when I was looking at floats last summer.
They are definitely a premium quality float, but out of my price range. Too bad, because the factory is only an hour from my place.
Dan
When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it. ~Henry Ford
User avatar
gkremers
Veteran Member
Posts: 495
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:06 am
Location: Michigan

Re: Highlander on Floats

Post by gkremers »

Well that puts the Clamar floats about $10,000 - $11,000 higher than the Zenair (factory built), higher than what I was told 2 years ago. I'd really like to hear reports on the Zenair Anphibs. I spoke with 2 LSA vendors at Oshkosh last summer that had the Zenair's on their demo planes. Both did not like the quality at all but I'm not sure who built them. I don't mind building them from a kit, just want to be sure the overall kit and design quality is sound.

Thanks for the feedback

Gary
moving2time
Veteran Member
Posts: 243
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2010 5:42 pm

Re: Highlander on Floats

Post by moving2time »

As I mentioned on the other thread before we wisely opened this thread, I took a one hour lesson in a Super Cub with straight floats with Kenmore Air on Lake Washington late last summer. It was a chance to log an hour on floats for the first time and see Seattle from the air. I was surprised how straight forward flying off the water on floats was in the Cub. Prior to this flight I had no time logged in a Cub. I have been up a couple of times in the back seat but there were no controls so no stick time. The Super Cub was a blast and I must say that I thought I did very well for my first flight off of water. The lesson included taxi out to runway, several hops while heading South on Lake Washington and then we crossed over to the Sound, flew around Seattle, and returned for one last landing. The following taxi and docking also went well. I had a blast and I look forward to the day that I can put floats on the Highlander, to tell you the truth I probably looked like I just had sex for the first time as I crawled out of that Cub. I am struggling with saving up the cash for my kit purchase so I would definitely build the Zenair amphibian kit when the time comes. Who ever thought I would be raising three kids well into their late 20's! Just to note, it was interesting watching them move the aircraft around at Kenmore Air. Most of the aircraft there use straight floats. The aircraft are parked on the ground in their lot and operations staff picked them up and move the aircraft with tow motors. Learned a lot watching their operations and I would definitely travel out there for a couple of days to eventually earn my float plane endorsement. One day soon I hope!
Post Reply

Return to “Just Aircraft”