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Pop... Pop... Pop Rivets...

PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:52 pm
by FlyerChief
Saturday, I flew just over 250 miles mostly with the windows open, then Sunday I flew back home, another 250 miles, again mostly with the windows open because it was quite hot and very humid. About 2/3 of the way back, I noticed vibration and what amounted to a fluttering sound. At first glance around the cabin I didn't notice anything, but soon found that the window was vibrating fairly violently, so I closed it. As I finished the trip back, I kept seeing something moving over my left shoulder. Upon further inspection I noticed the window was still vibrating (fluttering) at the back, even with the window latched. Once I landed, I inspected further. Attached is a photo of what I found. :shock:

Nine rivets had popped from the back and one at the centre likely where the window was flexing as it oscillated in the air stream. Just to clarify... the heads had completely popped off, but the shafts were still in the frame.

If you are not already checking the window and door rivets, you may want to add this to your pre-flight walk around inspection, especially if you fly with the windows or doors open at all. I had a strong crosswind Sunday from the passenger side, which may have created some unusual air currents on the pilot side causing the oscillation.

For anyone who has not yet installed the Lexan on your plane yet, consider adding a very thin layer of double-faced foam tape between the frame and Lexan to eliminate this problem. I will be doing this upgrade on my windows this winter when the plane is back home and adding vents in the doors so I don't have to fly with the windows open when it's so hot outside.

Has anyone else had this problem?

Regards,
Dan

Pop...Pop...Pop Rivets.jpg

Re: Pop... Pop... Pop Rivets...

PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:16 pm
by jjacky
Excellent idea and advice....Thanks!

Re: Pop... Pop... Pop Rivets...

PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 2:35 pm
by stede52
Hey Guys, Just thought I'd share something I've learned. After building a Carbon Cub I've learned some new techniques for a number of processes and attaching windows was one of them. Knowing what I know now, I'd never use all those rivets on windows/doors/sunroof, instead I would use 3M acrylic foam tape, http://highbondtapes.com/grey-25mil?gcl ... fgod6lgCbg, and stainless #6 stainless truss head screws with plastic washers under the screw heads. Cubcrafters use this technique to attached all their acylic/polycarbonate to frames and it is amazing stuff. I would go with the 1/4" tape for the rounded tube frames. With this stuff you won't need 3/4ths of the rivets you are currently using on your windows or sunroof. You'll only need rivets in the corners of straight runs and mid points of the window and door where the glass bends. Because its foam it will also absorb the vibration so you'll never have head popping off.
There is a technique to putting it on though:
1. Fit and drill window and frame as you normally would using clecos to hold it in place. Whether you uses rivets or screws make the holes 25-30% larger the the diameter of the screw or rivet.
2. Remove the glass and clean the frame with alcohol where the tape is applied. The tape is applied to the all sides of the frame which the glass comes in contact, DO NOT REMOVE THE RED LINER FROM THE TAPE AT THIS TIME.
3. At the each corner of the frame or end of each length of tape pull off a one inch tab of the red liner or what ever length you need to be able to accessed it when the window is clecoed back onto the window/door, installed on the fuselage and closed. Put some thought into how the tabs will be accessed.
4. Cleaco the window onto the frame.
5. From one of the tape ends (using the tab you started in step # 3) start pulling the red liner off the tape from under the window at a 45 degrees to the frame and remove clecos as you come to them on the frame. Replace the cleco after you've cleared the hole by about 3" and continue removing the red liner.
6. Continue removing the red liner on all other lengths of tape. Make sure the glass is pressed down on to the tape, remove clecos and replacing them with screws or rivets as you go.
7. REMEMBER!!! once the window is stuck to the tape IT IS REALLY STUCK! so take your time! It can be removed by a razor blade or running a small drill bit between the glass and frame but it is a pain to do.

Let me know if you have any questions.

Re: Pop... Pop... Pop Rivets...

PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 8:11 pm
by R Rinker
I was wondering when this stuff would start to be discovered for practical use on our homebuilts. They assemble entire equipment modules with nothing but this tape. All the sheet aluminum 'could' actually be applied with it as far as I understand. There are some videos showing the wonders of it ...worth checking out.

Re: Pop... Pop... Pop Rivets...

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 5:57 am
by SheepdogRD
stede52 wrote: After building a Carbon Cub I've learned some new techniques for a number of processes and attaching windows was one of them...

Thanks, Steve... this is really good information. It should help make the planes feel tighter and may even make them a bit quieter.

stede52 wrote: Let me know if you have any questions.

1. For flat surfaces, such as mounting the sunroof, would you recommend 1/2" tape?

2. How far along on the Carbon Cub are you?

3. What other nifty stuff can you tell us about?

Re: Pop... Pop... Pop Rivets...

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:50 am
by stede52
Richard,
1/2" would be good for the sunroof, just make sure if its a wood surface that is is sealed well, the tape sticks best to smooth clean surfaces. I would only use rivets on the front a rear of the sunroof and nothing on the wood section if you have a highlander.
I started flying the cub in April and I've got 100hrs on it now. Yes, I've been having fun :D :D :D :D :D It was a 14 month build due to the Doug Keller split fowler flaps I installed, which you won't see on another Carbon Cub :shock:. The flaps are impressive, I routinely touch down at 26 mph and I'm also running Jim Pekolas tailwheel which works great. I was running the BabyBush Tailwheel but it shimmed so bad it was impossible to control on paved surfaces.

Re: Pop... Pop... Pop Rivets...

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 6:43 pm
by bluemax
Hey Steve,
I can't tell whether or not you are using the "lockable" tailwheel?

Re: Pop... Pop... Pop Rivets...

PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 6:46 am
by HS-JAT
I completely covered my window/door frames with 1" thin leading edge tape, and then riveted the lexan on. Invisible and No chaffing and corrosion issues. That stuff is bulletproof. Covered the Jury struts and clamps as well, as those use to be prone to corrosion.

Re: Pop... Pop... Pop Rivets...

PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 10:27 am
by stede52
Max, I haven't yet installed the locking option, will be doing that this winter.

Re: Pop... Pop... Pop Rivets...

PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 10:32 am
by moving2time
What tape are you referring to in your comment, " 1 inch leading edge tape? " I have been looking for something to use between the lift struts and jury strut clamps.

Re: Pop... Pop... Pop Rivets...

PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 10:45 pm
by HS-JAT
moving2time wrote:What tape are you referring to in your comment, " 1 inch leading edge tape? " I have been looking for something to use between the lift struts and jury strut clamps.


http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/c ... kkey=24505

As I said. I completely covered my door frames with this stuff. No chaffing or corrosion between frame and lexan. Completely covered jury strut clamps, and jury struts. If there is no sign of any corrosion in the jungle environment of Thailand, you are not going to have any rust issues anywhere else. All edges of my plane have this tape. Something bumping into it is not going do a thing, and I can scrub bugs as hard as I want without worrying about the paint. 1 inch tape on all edges of the tail. 2 inch tape on leading edge wing struts. 1 inch tape on landing gear struts. 4 inch tape on leading edge of wing. Even had my entire cowling covered with clear wrap that they now use to cover cars.

Re: Pop... Pop... Pop Rivets...

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 1:07 pm
by moving2time
HS-JAT Thank you so much for the clarification. I was thinking that you were talking about a type of tape that is used when you are applying the covering. I am going to order some and give it a try. Thank you.

Re: Pop... Pop... Pop Rivets...

PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 10:54 pm
by marl59
Steve, would you mind posting a close up photo of the finished foam tape/fasteners of the window installation. I'm getting ready to replace the scratched up door/window panels and (your!) windscreen in my Highlander. This sounds much better than the all rivet method of fastening. What size truss head screws did you use on the Carbon Cub? Stainless? Thanks for your help?

Re: Pop... Pop... Pop Rivets...

PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2015 12:50 pm
by stede52
I'll try and get some pics today, CubCrafters used 1/16" polycarbonate on the windows and held them down with #6 X 1/2" SS truss screws. Using one in each corner and two on the center post. With the Highlander window I would use one on each corner and add a couple more on the bowed areas of the door and window because those area will have a tendency to want to pull away from the frame.

Re: Pop... Pop... Pop Rivets...

PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:13 pm
by av8rps
I know this is the Just Aircraft forum, but DANG IT STEVE, that is a gorgeous Carbon Cub. I love the paint job and colors, and especially those flaps! Of course I also thought your Highlander was kick-ass too. You are one heck of a craftsman Steve...

I'm curious, is the Carbon Cub about 50% more money to build than the average Highlander, or is that just rumor? I'm also curious how your weight came in? I have a friend thinking about a CC, so I'd like to share with him what I've learned here about your plane.