Fuel storage and transportation

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Fuel storage and transportation

Postby SuperFly » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:58 pm

Dick,

Per discussion starting on other thread...

I can't honesty tell you what shelf life of Swift UL94 is. I do recall them saying a few years ago, it would be as good as 100LL or better, but it is still somewhat of an unknown/unproven to me.
That said, there is a bit more to the story of my trailer.
I spoke with Swift several months ago. They offer a tote that would be shipped out to a customer, you pump it off into your tank, and ship it back to them with in a week. After 10 days, they bill you rent on the tote. If I remember correctly, it is like $60 month. I had a nice Aluminum tank that holds 300 gallons. I had built a mount for the trailer, and was in process of building the trailer with it. I found out the totes from Swift are 350 gallons. I didnt want to figure out a plan for 50 extra gallons of fuel that was not in my trailer, so I opted back to the tanks that are on the trailer (they were mt original plan, before I stumbled onto the aluminum tank) The stainless tanks that are on the trailer are bigger than I wanted, but they do fit the trailer nicely, and I am a sucker for shiny things. I dont have to fill them completely full every time, such as I did this time (as you mentioned, thats alot of Rotax 912 fuel!) And was another reason I opted for 300 gallons this load, instead of filling the tanks.
So the route I took, I met a guy at a fly in a few years ago, that lives about 30 miles from me. He has a 1000 gallon tank on his (very nice) grass strip, that he fills with Swift. I was planning to order a tote at some point, but he called and told me he was getting a tanker from Swift in to fill him up. I coordinated an order with Swift, had my fuel added to the tanker, and pulled my fuel trailer over to his place to get my fuel when the tanker arrived. It worked out great, and I saved quite a bit per gallon over the tote.
To anyone interested, I was quoted $4.35 gallon in the tote. (this includes all applicable taxes, and freight both ways on the tote) The transport truck method which I used, I paid $3.45 gallon (again all taxes and freight included)
So it is quite bit cheaper to get a tanker, but not everyone will have that option. Also, keep in mind, I am pretty close to Lafayette IN which is where Swift is located. (about 120 miles) So your mileage may vary...

Also of note, there are a couple of trikes that fly out of dads strip as well, and they will likely by some fuel from me (not much, as they dont fly much, and have small 2 stroke Rotax engines)

Hope that makes a little more sense. Ill post a couple of pictures when its completely finished.
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Ben Schneider
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http://www.stolairplane.com
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Re: Fuel storage and transportation

Postby FredHoffman » Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:20 am

I think I am lucky here in Virginia, Royal gas stations carry 93 octane ethanol free gas for well under $3 a gallon. I plan to get a fuel caddy with a hand pump from northern tool. The hand pump can run in either direction so de-fueling is possible before folding wings back.

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Re: Fuel storage and transportation

Postby moving2time » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:06 am

Ben, I have had a question rattling around in the vast space between my ears lately and you may be a good person to ask or at least this thread you started may attract some experienced followers. If you fly regularly on no lead auto fuel what do you do when you travel? Do you use the local leaded aviation fuel or can you mix your fuel with the ethanol containing gas from most gas stations? The availability of ethanol free fuel at airports is not very common. This probably isn't a big deal for you since you are flying with a Rotax engine because most people are flying their Rotax engines with leaded aviation fuel. However, a guy like Steve Henry who is currently flying with his Yamaha engine and travels a lot must be using what ever he can find but that engine is clearly designed for auto fuel. I'm curious how an engine like that runs on leaded aviation fuel in a pinch. Actually, I am curious how any engine handles switching from one fuel type to another. I would think that there would be tuning issues between the different types of fuel. Ethanol free fuel is very hard to find in my area and there is a lot of farming in Ohio. BTW, I still haven't started my build. My stars just are not aligning. Joe B
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Re: Fuel storage and transportation

Postby SuperFly » Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:05 pm

Joe.

I have used 93 Octane auto fuel (ethanol), Non ethanol 92 octane (hard to get here in IL), a little 100LL, and Swift UL94. I can tell you that I like the UL94 the best. But for differing reasons. The Swift wont stain like auto gas, (see top of my right wing) doesnt have ethanol to absorb water. The non ethanol auto gas wont either, but its very hard to find, and cost me more than I paid for the Swift fuel. 100LL is widely available, but reduces the TBO on the Rotax, and is expensive. In my case, I took 100LL at an airport, mixed in what I bought with the 93 octane auto fuel, and flew off. There really isnt any tuning changing between the fuels, but you can tell a little bit of difference in how it runs. (not alot, but subtle) As far as Steves Yamaha, I dont know if there is any tuning difference, but I would guess there is not. Steve, comment?
Now if a person was racing an engine, there may be reason to tune to a specific fuel, but generally, not necessary otherwise.

Hope that helps clarify Joe.
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Ben Schneider
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Re: Fuel storage and transportation

Postby moving2time » Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:06 am

Thanks Ben. It does help. I have seen numerous threads talking about auto fuel without ethanol and the facts are hard to gather from the discussions. Most seem to mix with 100LL but then those threads are talking mostly about the early Continental A65 engine which is what I have on my CUB. My curiosity is mostly related to auto engine conversions of which I would include the Yamaha. I can't imagine that those engines would like 100LL fuel. The lead must be very problematic specially if it is fuel injected. Steve's RX1 has carbs but the Apex that he is working on is fuel injected. For any of us that are going to fly anywhere much farther than home the only choice we can count on is 100LL. I'm guessing this could be a problem for some of the engine choices out there. The aircraft I trained on had a Rotax and it was always flown with 100LL but they had professional A&P's maintaining it constantly. Rotax would prefer unleaded fuel and definitely without the ethanol but it isn't very available. The FAA is failing us as far as modern technology improvements and modern fuel. They move like a glacier. Sad really. Thanks for sharing Ben. See you soon. Joe B
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Re: Fuel storage and transportation

Postby moving2time » Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:30 am

I second TD1's opinion. I love reading through all the posts here. Seems like I am always learning. Personally I would vote for more photos and more video. Loved Troy Branch's thread about his SS build in Canada. Really nice build and he shared everything with great photos and video. Made for some great reading and he shared some great ideas. This web site is a blast! Joe B
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Re: Fuel storage and transportation

Postby kenryan » Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:35 am

You can run up to 10% ethanol in your Rotax, no problem--provided your airframe (tanks, hoses, fittings, etc.) can tolerate it. See SI 912-016R10

http://www.flyrotax.com/services/technical-documentation.html
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Re: Fuel storage and transportation

Postby BanSanPaYang » Mon Dec 25, 2017 8:05 pm

Hello All

We had the same supposed GREAT? idea 28 years ago up here in Canada for transferring JetA to remote spots to refuel helicopters while heliskiing, until we got stopped by the highways commercial cops. After the $1175 of fines the idea was deemed uneconomical, until we met their rules at least.

Non approved mobile fuel vessel (has to meet MC-306 standards), non inspected fuel vessel ( has to be inspected yearly), not placarded properly ( front of tow vehicle, back of trailer, and both sides of tank), no fire extinguisher, driver did not have a Transport of Dangerous Goods license ( required when transporting over 450litres). And that is just the fines. What would be the legal, which leads to monitary consequences if you had an accident or a spill.

James
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Re: Fuel storage and transportation

Postby BucF16 » Mon Dec 25, 2017 8:55 pm

BanSanPaYang wrote:Hello All

We had the same supposed GREAT? idea 28 years ago up here in Canada for transferring JetA to remote spots to refuel helicopters while heliskiing, until we got stopped by the highways commercial cops. After the $1175 of fines the idea was deemed uneconomical, until we met their rules at least.

Non approved mobile fuel vessel (has to meet MC-306 standards), non inspected fuel vessel ( has to be inspected yearly), not placarded properly ( front of tow vehicle, back of trailer, and both sides of tank), no fire extinguisher, driver did not have a Transport of Dangerous Goods license ( required when transporting over 450litres). And that is just the fines. What would be the legal, which leads to monitary consequences if you had an accident or a spill.

James


I was wondering about that....? Max?
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Re: Fuel storage and transportation

Postby SuperFly » Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:25 pm

I believe the magic number (at least in IL, not sure if its the entire US or not) is 119 gallons. Above that, you need placards, and appropriate inspections and licensing.
I have no intention of pulling this on the road. (this first fill aside obviously) It is simply to keep fuel at my strip, and be able to put it in a shed to keep it out of the rain.
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Re: Fuel storage and transportation

Postby bluemax » Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:20 pm

BucF16 wrote:
BanSanPaYang wrote:Hello All

We had the same supposed GREAT? idea 28 years ago up here in Canada for transferring JetA to remote spots to refuel helicopters while heliskiing, until we got stopped by the highways commercial cops. After the $1175 of fines the idea was deemed uneconomical, until we met their rules at least.

Non approved mobile fuel vessel (has to meet MC-306 standards), non inspected fuel vessel ( has to be inspected yearly), not placarded properly ( front of tow vehicle, back of trailer, and both sides of tank), no fire extinguisher, driver did not have a Transport of Dangerous Goods license ( required when transporting over 450litres). And that is just the fines. What would be the legal, which leads to monitary consequences if you had an accident or a spill.

James


I was wondering about that....? Max?


Yeah.....I was scratching my head about it. I have a buddy that inspects commercial trucks all day long… Figured he would have the answer. He did. But his explanation was more than I was looking for, and it made my head hurt. He says basically tanks mounted in a permanent fashion on a trailer need placards once they reach 119 gallons of gasoline (bulk). Being a tank trailer hauling hazardous liquid, the operator needs a CDL with haz-mat endorsement. He also said that there are many, many exemptions to the various laws, all brought about by lobbyists for the trucking and energy companies. So nothing is set in stone. It is all a moot point anyway, at least in Ben's situation, because he will not normally be transferring fuel over the road. Interestingly, he said that small police departments that really don't know all of the laws write bad citations for commercial trucks frequently.
Max Rentz
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Re: Fuel storage and transportation

Postby BucF16 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:23 am

Thanks Max! Just north of you on Route 661 (which is on your way to Mt. Vernon airport) is the Fredonia gas station. It has ethanol free fuel for farmers. This is where I intend to to purchase my fuel for the Highlander. I'm going to purchase a 100 gallon DOT 3 approved tank and put it on the Northern Tool trailer that is purpose built for such rigs. Hopefully this will satisfy you trooper buddies. :cry:

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Re: Fuel storage and transportation

Postby gkremers » Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:09 pm

Just another thought on the subject.

It would be convenient to have a large quantity of fuel on hand but........ I don’t want to store that much fuel and the plane just doesn’t use that much. I fly the Highlander approx 100 hours per year (another 125 or so on the RV10). At around 5 gallons per hour that works out to 500 gallons or so in an entire year. The fuel would be pretty old by the time I used it all. For those flying a couple hundred hours a year it makes sense but for me 10 gallons or so a week isn’t a real issue.

Gary
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Re: Fuel storage and transportation

Postby z987k » Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:29 pm

Just about everyone up here that runs autogas or a mix of auto and LL have fuel tanks with electric pumps in the bed of their truck. So that's everyone with a 250hp O-540 on down pretty much. With the exception of the injected engines anyways. You see them at around 100gallsons and less, as mentioned about 119 gallons becomes hazmat(I think that's federal). Mine's 80 gallons and I just put stabil in it from about September until May and then I'm using enough it's not an issue anymore.

The only down side to running LL on an RX1 motor would be the lead build up on the pistons and valves. From what I understand the gearbox oil is not shared on the conversions(correct me if I'm wrong) Over time I'd imagine you would start loosing compression, but so does a lycoming for the exact same reason. I don't think anyone is putting catalytic converters on airplanes so that should be a non-issue.
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Re: Fuel storage and transportation

Postby SuperFly » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:20 pm

As promised, here is a completed picture of my fuel trailer. Complete with accessories. It was really bright out today, so it was hard to get a really good picture, but its a bit easier to see without the clutter of my shop.
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Fuel Trailer.JPG
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