Looking for advice on Just Super STOL kit

For general discussion of the Just Aircraft family of aircraft.
Includes: Highlander, Escapade, Summit and SuperSTOL.

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Re: Looking for advice on Just Super STOL kit

Postby gkremers » Wed Apr 06, 2016 10:08 am

Lockwood's list the price for a new 912UL is $17,600
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Re: Looking for advice on Just Super STOL kit

Postby Red7 » Wed Apr 06, 2016 10:56 am

I've worked with top trike and gyro companies for years so I can get large OEM pricing on engines, props etc. I also get dealer pricing for all MGL avionics so there are a couple items I could save some money on but I'm still very leery of sinking more money into this without knowing I could at least break even. It does sound like the estimates we used on labor were way high because the guy who builds Cubs who does some of the best quality building I've seen throughout a price of max of $30k but that was if he had to literally build the aircraft from scratch. That was before figuring out that Stage 3 has some of the wings already built and the build time about half what we were guessing.

It's definitely a tough call whether to build or sell this kit. I wonder what a realistic discount would be to get the kit to move. One plus is it looks like the kit price went up about $2k from what I paid. That is if the factory holds firm to those prices. Or are those listed prices just retail prices and they do discounts from the factory? I learned a value lesson through this about not trusting someone's word without doing my own research.
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Re: Looking for advice on Just Super STOL kit

Postby AV8R Paul » Wed Apr 06, 2016 11:52 am

$32,499 versus $30,000, I think it's in the ballpark.
Looking at my notes the approximate $29,500 was for the Tubo 914. Just checked CPS 914 price $28252.65.
If your doing the wor yourself there is sufficient room for a profit.
The minute you have to pay some one to build it it will eat up the profit.
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Re: Looking for advice on Just Super STOL kit

Postby danerazz » Wed Apr 06, 2016 12:14 pm

Most experimentals you will get about what you have in them for materials only, your time is "free."

There are exceptions, and "professionally built" seems do demand something of a premium, but it seems to me your profit is really your cost in time. If you do the work, you get the money, if you have to pay for the work, the 3rd party gets the money, but it is all the same money.
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Re: Looking for advice on Just Super STOL kit

Postby Jack L » Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:35 pm

Most experimentals you will get about what you have in them for materials only, your time is "free."

There are exceptions, and "professionally built" seems do demand something of a premium, but it seems to me your profit is really your cost in time. If you do the work, you get the money, if you have to pay for the work, the 3rd party gets the money, but it is all the same money.


Absolutely! If you do try to recover the cost of work performed by a third party be prepared to wait a long while. Follow Barnstormers for a while and you will see.

In regard to build times so many people seem concerned with calendar time when the time to build should be calculated in person hours. A couple of experienced people that have a couple more helpers will complete the task much quicker than someone that takes on the entire alone. If the solo builder is experienced the person hours won't be so far off, however there will be a penalty for the learning curve if you do lack experience.

Red7 there is a kit for sale on Barnstormers that you can compare yours with. The high USD and state of the global economy has had a huge impact on sales at Just Aircraft so either sell it at a loss now or wait until things improve to get all of your money back.
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Re: Looking for advice on Just Super STOL kit

Postby danerazz » Wed Apr 06, 2016 3:18 pm

Mine is going on five years, but there have been so many pauses due to outside influence that when I think of the actual man-hours of work, I am amazed at HOW MUCH I have completed. For me the work is not difficult or taxing, it is finding time to work. My BEST weeks allow me 3-4 hours a day for only 3-4 days a week. My worst was nearly a year in Afghanistan. Everything else has been somewhere in between. If I can get a couple productive weeks I can get electric and FF done then cover wings/fuse and paint and we're done.

Ahh, to be single with no additional obligations again!

Then again, who would I fly it with if I was?
Dane

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Re: Looking for advice on Just Super STOL kit

Postby av8rps » Wed Apr 06, 2016 3:30 pm

A good example of what people here are saying would be my posting a while ago where I told everyone here that I was considering selling one of my Highlanders - one finished and flying for around 70k, and the other is a Highlander built and covered through silver, but no firewall forward or interior, for 40k (the ultimate quick build). Plane Fun charges 51k to build a Highlander to that level, so mine looks like a good deal by comparison. But no one bit on my deal, so I'll probably either see what happens with it in Barnstormers, or finish it and decide later which one to sell. But It wasn't too long ago my flying Highlander would have brought 80+K. So at 70k it should be a heck of a deal now. In rough numbers you will be hard pressed to build a nice airplane like mine for 70k, as parts alone will pretty much cost that by the time it is complete, allowing nothing for the laborious task of building it. I marketed my flying Highlander for 30 days on barnstormers at 72k and got lots of interest, but everyone wanted to trade me something (does anyone have any money anymore?). If I were willing to take a trade I could have sold it ten times. But I don't want to do that so I'll maybe try again later, or just keep it (I do really like it - just don't need two). So because of this crappy economy, instead of the 80+K the airplane should really be worth, you can't even get the cost of the materials today. Oh, and remember, Highlanders and Super Stols are one of the most sought after homebuilts out there right now. I can't imagine what it must be like if you have something that is not very desirable. Talk about a bad investment...

With all that said, if you hadn't already seen this, this info from the Plane Fun Aircraft website might help you to know what direction you want to go with your kit;

KIt costs and fast build cost for Highlander and Super Stol:

"HIGHLANDER KIT- includes: all of escapade kit, extended wings, heavy duty extended landing gear, 8 inch tailwheel, upgraded matco brakes, balanced elevator and rudder, vortec generators, CHECKOUT OPTIONS ON OPTION PAGE PRICE 27,900.00 us dollars

Fast build kit- Includes: plane built and primed with one coat of primer ,all you need to do is paint add firewall forward and instruments .
Price 51,000.00 us dollars"

SUPERSTOL KIT - Includes: dual matco brakes, slatted wing, larger balanced rudder and elevator, shock landing gear and tailwheel, 13.5 gallon wing tanks, 21 inch tires, all hardware, covering, glue, seats, cushions,all welding completed. DOES NOT INCLUDE: firewall forward, primer, paint, avionics, instruments, training. CHECKOUT OPTIONS ON OPTIONS PAGE
PRICE 41,700.00 us dollars

Fast build kit - Includes: plane built and primed with one coat of primer ,all you need to do is paint add firewall forward and instruments. PRICE 72,800.00 US DOLLARS

**************************************
And now remember, that is NOT A COMPLETE AIRPLANE. That is covered and primed, pretty much bare bones airplane awaiting paint and firewall forward, and instruments.

So if your friend will build one for max 30k, that would be a very good deal. But again, you're not likely to get your money back even if you do it that way unless your Super Stol is something absolutely spectacular /special.
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Re: Looking for advice on Just Super STOL kit

Postby AV8R Paul » Wed Apr 06, 2016 4:26 pm

I agree with av8rps.
I would also say that if you had the plane built by someone like
Gary Schmidt and Troy Townsend of Just Aircraft
or Steve Henry of Wild West Aircraft
and /or Billy Payne Plane Fun Aircraft.
Then you could expect to get pretty close to $120,000 to $130,000.
However, if you have it built by someone not known for building Just Aircraft Highlanders & SuperSTOL, you get what you pay for, and it might not be a $130,000 aircraft.
The reason I haven’t purchased a kit is because I need to sell my Plane before I can consider buying another.
I personally don’t believe your friend that recommended it was wrong at least at the time he recommended it.
However, it is like the Stock Market, and the market can change and it changed rather quickly. Right now I have a Oil/Gas Stock, that if I could get 1/2 of what I paid for it I would be happy.

Paul Z
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Re: Looking for advice on Just Super STOL kit

Postby AV8R Paul » Wed Apr 06, 2016 5:58 pm

danerazz wrote:Mine is going on five years, but there have been so many pauses due to outside influence that when I think of the actual man-hours of work, I am amazed at HOW MUCH I have completed. For me the work is not difficult or taxing, it is finding time to work. My BEST weeks allow me 3-4 hours a day for only 3-4 days a week. My worst was nearly a year in Afghanistan. Everything else has been somewhere in between. If I can get a couple productive weeks I can get electric and FF done then cover wings/fuse and paint and we're done.

Ahh, to be single with no additional obligations again!

Then again, who would I fly it with if I was?


Thanks for your Service!
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Re: Looking for advice on Just Super STOL kit

Postby AV8R Paul » Wed Apr 06, 2016 6:05 pm

Red7 wrote:Paul, where did you get that $29k for the engine? I can get a brand new 912 100HP for under $17k. I realize the Just website shows about $29k for firewall forward but what all does that consist of to get it up to that price?


I did see a 912 ULS 100 HP for about $29K, it was on the following Web Site, it was for Firewall forward, Prop, Cowling, Engine Mount etc.

http://www.justaircraft.com/superStolPr ... #gsc.tab=0
Engine Options:
Rotax 912ULS 100HP (Engine w/Firewall Forward including Kiev #293 Prop & Exhaust) $28,204.00¹
¹Due to foreign currency fluctuations prices may change at time of purchase.
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Re: Looking for advice on Just Super STOL kit

Postby Clark in AZ » Wed Apr 06, 2016 7:04 pm

All of this is why I'm not buying a SuperStol at this time. Way too many folks buying, building and flipping them. They've made the market in these aircraft artificially high. I think that is why Just raised their prices, but it's a false market. I'll wait for all the profiteers to get weeded out and prices to come back down, if they don't, I won't buy.
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Re: Looking for advice on Just Super STOL kit

Postby Red7 » Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:40 am

I really do appreciate all your advice! What I may do is list my kit on Barnstormers along with an agreement to pass on large OEM pricing on an engine and dealer pricing on avionics, prop, etc. I believe I can get a new 914 for the mid $20's, 100hp 912 under $17k and also save the person thousands on avionics so maybe that could help give someone a sweeter deal and keep me from losing my shirt.

Another thing I'm wondering is if there is any value in getting the plane partially finished to where it's basically all done with the exception of waiting for the new buyer to choose paint, engine/prop package and avionics? That would allow the buyer to get the exact plane they want without having to do all the work. I'm just wondering if that would get me to where I wouldn't lose as much. The buyer could also check out the builder's work on this plane as well as his 2 cubs (one of which he has over $200k in). I'm just bouncing around ideas trying to figure out how to get out of this thing losing the least possible.
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Re: Looking for advice on Just Super STOL kit

Postby ja30driver » Sat Apr 09, 2016 10:24 pm

Build it.... Have it built.... Either way you win in comparison to selling the kit at a loss!
These planes are the equivalent to driving a restored 1971 K5 Blazer with bright Chevy yellow paint and no top.
No matter where you go... Everyone wants to look, talk and drool... Young, old, man or woman! When you taxi your SS past the G5... The Gulfstream pilot is jealous! No joke! Plus... You can have so much fun in the plane! Invaluable experiences.... Doing things I don't think you could or would with such confidence in many other planes!

Sell the kit.... You lose...
Own & fly a SS... You win... In a lot of ways!

Buy a 912 ULS big bore kit / fuel injected from Ronnie at Mississippi Sport... Better choice than a 914 turbo.

Good Luck!
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Re: Looking for advice on Just Super STOL kit

Postby av8rps » Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:39 pm

Ja30 driver,

All I have to say is, I love you enthusiasm!
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Re: Looking for advice on Just Super STOL kit

Postby Red7 » Tue Apr 12, 2016 10:49 pm

I appreciate everyone's input and have decided I'm going to pursue selling the kit as is. I appreciate people being honest with me here, that investing more money into it just hoping to break even could be a long shot.

If you are interested in buying a kit I'm willing to work a good deal that will save you several thousand over new. I hate to take such a loss but this was never something I planned on buying. In addition to saving you thousands on the kit, I will also get you whatever Rotax engine you want at large OEM pricing (best price any manufacturer can obtain). For example, I checked today and a new 912 ULS delivered to where I have the kit would be $16,300-500 depending upon exact shipping and customs. I will also extend dealer pricing on any MLS avionics including glass panels, radios, transponders, etc.

If you want to know more about me or are curious how trustworthy I am to do business with, click on my website www.sky-surfing.com and then click on the link to my tripadvisor page. You will see that out of 466 reviews, 464 of them are 5 star reviews and only 2 of them are 4 star reviews with nothing below that. Tripadvisor has contacted me on multiple occasions to inquire because they've never had a business with such overwhelming reviews. My success in real estate and other businesses has come from me running my businesses the way I'd want to be treated and always doing what I say. I always try to under promise and over deliver which may make me a lousy salesman but keeps people from experiencing what I'm going through. If interested contact me and we will work out a fair deal as I'm just wanting to move on and put this all behind me.

Thanks!
Dane
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www.sky-surfing.com
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