180 HP TITAN SUPERSTOL FLIES!

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180 HP TITAN SUPERSTOL FLIES!

Postby av8rps » Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:59 pm

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Re: 180 HP TITAN SUPERSTOL FLIES!

Postby AV8R Paul » Mon Apr 11, 2016 10:15 pm

Does the XL with the Titan meet the light sport criteria, can it be registered as an Experimental that meets Light Sport Criteria??
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Re: 180 HP TITAN SUPERSTOL FLIES!

Postby av8rps » Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:34 am

I'm pretty certain it will meet Lsa requirements as that was one of Troy's initial criteria for the Titan powered airplane. I'm guessing it may need a placard for operation much like the carbon Cub has telling you to only use 80 hp of the 180 hp after takeoff. That supposedly allows the Carbon Cub to meet the useful load formula within the Lsa regs.

If you want to hear Troy talking about that, just find the previous youtube video of Gary and Troy being interviwed by Dan Johnson about their plan to power a Super Stol XL with the Titan 180 hp.

And for what its worth, I'm guessing the Titan powered Super Stol XL will have an empty weight less than the weight of the Carbon Cub, so that for certain should help it qualify as an LSA. Plus, I'm guessing you could maybe get the empty weight down as much as 100 lbs (lighter than the 950 lb Carbon Cub) if one worked really hard to build it light. But I'm just speculating, as I haven't heard any weights on the Titan Super Stol XL yet.

Ever since hearing of the Titan powered SS XL, I keep thinking about how that might be made to work in a nice lightweight Highlander? (like the project in my garage) Hmmmmmm?????? :roll:
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Re: 180 HP TITAN SUPERSTOL FLIES!

Postby moving2time » Tue Apr 12, 2016 10:22 am

In that video they do discuss a goal to keep the XL in the LSA category but if they do it will not have the passenger capacity the stock Highlander has. The engine alone weighs 265 LBS. They had to modify the bolting pattern on the XL frame to mount the Titan so I don't think it could be mounted on a stock Highlander without welding modifications and then there is the weight and balance issue. The XL would be a great LSA for a pilot flying alone but from the weights i have heard so far I'm guessing a second passenger will push the air frame over the LSA weight limit. Technically I think the Carbon Cub has the same problem. There are a couple of XL videos out now that are full of information. The most impressive point being that the XL climbs like an elevator. Joe B
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Re: 180 HP TITAN SUPERSTOL FLIES!

Postby av8rps » Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:33 pm

Yeah, I remember Jeff Skiles writing about a flight demo in a Carbon Cub, and it really wasn't even legitimate to have two people with minimal fuel. But the airplane works so well, and is plenty strong, just like the Super Stol would be.

What we really need to solve that issue is for the FAA to either get rid of the 3rd class medical NOW, or move LSA weight to 1650+, OR BOTH (might be time to change our strategy with the FAA? The LSA regs were admittedly meant to never be final...so there's a lot more we can do with LSA imho. Hmmm? May be time for some more letters???).

I'm sure it would take a bit to shoehorn a Titan onto a standard Highlander, but I'm pretty certain it would be feasible as Kitfox just powered their Model 7 Super Sport with a Titan. And it goes like a scalded cat! And they didn't even lengthen the fuselage or modify the airframe. John McBean told me the first Titan Fox originally had a Lycoming 0-235 in it and the weight gained by adding the Titan was hardly noticeable. And since they've been flying Kitfoxes for years with heavy aircraft engines on them, I'm not surprised to learn that overall the Titan just works better. But I'm sure they will have the weight problem too if they want to remain LSA.

But you know, my 680 lb Highlander is already a rocketship. So I don't honestly know what I would do with another 80 hp? Although I'm sure I could come up with something... :wink:
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Re: 180 HP TITAN SUPERSTOL FLIES!

Postby Av8r3400 » Tue Apr 12, 2016 7:42 pm

I don't honestly know what I would do with another 80 hp? Although I'm sure I could come up with something...


Burn three times the fuel to haul half the load?
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Re: 180 HP TITAN SUPERSTOL FLIES!

Postby john2 » Tue Apr 12, 2016 9:27 pm

Av8r3400 wrote:
I don't honestly know what I would do with another 80 hp? Although I'm sure I could come up with something...


Burn three times the fuel to haul half the load?


"Like" like you do on Facebook, but according to "real" airplane pilots who don't like Rotax's it would be worth it just to sound right and not run over 3300 rpm. :lol:
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Re: 180 HP TITAN SUPERSTOL FLIES!

Postby moving2time » Wed Apr 13, 2016 12:54 pm

It is laughable that the Feds put an arbitrary weight to the LSA rule like 1320. That weight is so border line for a two seat aircraft that it is ridiculous. So many people fly under the LSA rule and are over weight it's a joke. Originally , I started looking at the Highlander because it was the only two place aircraft that has enough usable weight to get two real people up in the air. I trained in a Flight Design CTLS and it also has enough usable weight to carry two people but it was made out of carbon fiber. There is no reason for the 1320 weight limit. Flying an aircraft that weighs 1320 pounds is not any safer for a LSA pilot to fly than if it weighed 1500. At least a1500 pound limit would make it possible to fly two people in most of the two seat kit built aircraft out there. Its kinda like flying a Carbon Cub with 180 HP expected to reduce power after takeoff to be considered LSA. Why? Were our law makers born in a vacuum? Sorry, bad day. I just paid my taxes so these idiots can legislate more uselessness. Joe B
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Re: 180 HP TITAN SUPERSTOL FLIES!

Postby FlyerChief » Wed Apr 13, 2016 1:55 pm

Hi Joe,
I feel your pain, but you are lucky it's not 1232 lb. Check out this link for the rationale for the 1320 lb. rule for LSA.
http://www.flyingmag.com/aircraft/lsasport/sport-pilot-why-1320
Apparently, it was well thought out and studied before the decision was made. In Canada we are stuck with 1232 lb. for advanced ultralights, but can set our own limits for amateur built aircraft with proof of testing by the manufacturer. The Highlander/SS can be built under either set of rules. It's a good feeling to know that our Highlanders and SuperSTOLs have been tested to 1550 lb. so we at least know there is a substantial margin of safety at 1320.
Regards,
Dan
When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it. ~Henry Ford
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Re: 180 HP TITAN SUPERSTOL FLIES!

Postby av8rps » Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:55 pm

I was involved in all the original discussions with FAA and ultimately EAA on Sport Pilot. It's been a long time since all that, but that article about the weight is not 100% correct from what I remember. The 1232 was a number that was taken from other countries as the article describes, but the real reason for that number was that was the max weight of light aircraft that had crashed, but had the lowest fatality rate. There were formulas that were created to demonstrate that aircraft 1232 lbs or less that had lower top speeds but also low stall speeds seemed to be the least likely to kill the occupants. At the time Sport Pilot was introduced to the public, they had a Kitfox model IV-1200 on the Washington Mall for LSA display announcement, as it was essentially "The Poster Child for Light Sport". It was later as we pushed for heavier weights that they ultimately raised the number to 1320, and 1430 for floats (guess who :roll: pushed them for weight increases for floats, and then pushed and pushed and pushed for amphib Light Sport? [and none of that "repositionable" garbage])

At the time we really wanted the Cessna 150 to be included for training reasons, thinking that if inexpensive trainers were available that FBO flight schools would get behind Light Sport. But the FAA was lobbied by all the new aircraft manufacturers that saw dollar signs, so the weight was never increased to include good known, and inexpensive trainers like the C-150. And of course we never really got any support to speak of from the flight schools, aside from a handful around the country training in expensive modern 912 powered airplanes like the CT (for 130K each - when they could have bought 5 or 6 C-150's for the same money and consequently lowered the flight hourly rate and brought in more students who would have later maybe bought themselves airplanes like the CT... Can you tell I'm still upset how all that got handled :evil: )

I haven't looked in a while, but unless they changed the verbage in the Light Sport rule, there is no mention of aircraft "Gross weight" (as that article indicates). It only refers to flying weight. They don't want you to know that, but that was pretty well known amongst the people in our original group.

So in effect, even if the airplane is documented for 1550 lbs gross weight, as long as it is never flown more than 1320 (or 1430 on floats), it is a legal LSA. Again, maybe they rewrote that, but last I looked they hadn't changed it. And frankly, it needs to be changed, as in INCREASED! The Icon A5 opened the door for higher LSA weights as that LSA is approved around 1500 something last I looked. They just asked for an exemption, and got it because they felt they needed that for the extra design features incorporated to make the aircraft safer. I think the Super STOL is also a design that incorporates a lot of safety features that added weight (slats, spoilers, big gear, etc). So I'd say Icon opened the door for us, so all we should need to do is kick it in now if we want more weight :wink:

But I also have to admit that we have some really great airplanes that meet the current numbers. I know the 180 hp Titan powered Super Stol is way cool, but so is my original Highlander which is a phenomenal STOL aircraft on only 100 hp, and it can haul 640 lbs, nearly it's own empty weight, and still be legal LSA. The Kitfox IV the FAA used as an example is also a good example. The 912 Model IV nicely equipped is about a 650 lb airplane, so if you decide to gross it to 1320, it will haul 670 lbs, more than its own empty weight. Think about it, how many airplanes can legally haul their own empty weight and still be a legal LSA? So we do have great airplanes for Light Sport even as the rule applies.

But more weight allowance would make our Light Sport Safety Record even better. What we've learned since the Light Sport rule came out is that the most dangerous people flying LSA's are people that had to leave their Cessna or Piper to fly something like a Kitfox. It isn't the Kitfox, or the new pilot that learned in a Kitfox that is the problem. It's the old school pilots having to be taught how to fly these little airplanes that feel quirky compared to what they have been flying their whole life, that are having most of the issues. So that's the number one reason we either need to significantly increase LSA weights, or get rid of the 3rd class medical. or both. As I said earlier, it might be the time to start barraging the FAA with letters telling our government (you know, the people that work for us to make laws that we want...) what we want them to do. I know it can be done because I was involved in the ground floor with Light Sport. And I will never forget the day I said requiring a medical is downright stupid, as there is nothing that proves it does anything for safety. And all I could hear in the room was people gasping for their breath in disbelief anyone would say such a thing. But today we can fly our Light Sport airplanes by just self certifying our medical condition, which is just common sense and we all do anyhow. So there's no reason we can't get more common sense changes through I'm certain. We just have to have the balls to tell them what we want. I tell them in person every chance I get, and they probably get real tired of me. But I keep trying as I believe one day we will all be able to fly our privately owned, non commercial aircraft without a medical.

Ok, I'm off my soap box now...

Oh, and the comment earlier about the sound of a Rotax vs a conventional aircraft engine....I am always complimented by people how nice my 80 hp Kitfox amphib sounds as it flies by. Other pilots tell me it sounds like it is turbine powered. My neighbors like it even more as "It isn't loud like those other seaplanes that fly around here". I have a Lycoming 180 powered airplane, and a couple 912 airplanes. I like all of them, and each have their benefits. But I will agree with AV8R3400, the 912 is nearly impossible to beat for efficiency. I swear sometimes when I'm flying mine it is making gas :lol:
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